Ferenc Kočiš

- If this was an information circulating through city among people, it means police knew about it? - "Probably yes, that this is…(??), but probably they knew also, on the other hand.. they could not close the whole border, wright. That is it. You could alwas find some passage, a whole, something, wright. - Let´s go back to this motives. What was your motives? There were four of you. Can you tell us who were those people who escape with you? - Their names were Drago Draguzet… then.. just a minute to remember.. Kuftić, but don´t know the name… and Zonta Zlatko supposed to come with us, he stayed home as his father tied him there… tied.. so he said that father tied him with handcuffs to a locker, not be able to go… with us. Yes. - How much time did you plan your escape? - Quite a long time, but it was more making decision shell we go or not… like children, what we knew, we had …15..14 years, 7th grade in elementary school…like we will go there, to have a better life, everyone talk about it, America… watching movies… and so, saying(you think to find better??).. think, better.. to the west, wright. - Was it so bad here? - Not …so bad; to us children, but… we see it was not it, the life here is not like a life you could live abroad. And we were here.. like.. let´s go. That was more adventure than escape, but ok. - You were determined to leave…? - Decide to go to the west looking for a better life. -Then, was it a pure propaganda… as you say you didn´t missed anything, that was propaganda…or adventure, or even all together, or it was so bad here? - It was not so bad here. As parents work… like, my brother work, as he was 10 years older, so thinking I didn´t miss money, but just…a little bit of propaganda, these movies.. on tele… not on television but in the movies, because television were very little present. What you saw, thinking ”why would I stay here when I can leae?”. And then, when heard stories from other, about people who have left to Canada, America, Australia so.. with other things…. - Good, mainly this urban tissue of Pula was very… very…talking a lot about it. - Yes a lot of talking, yes… - This themes were inevitable, concerning escape and …. - In this days yes. Quite a lot. - Talking about period from beginning of 60ties till…. - Maybe even before, but… ok, since I remember, know people talk about it. This 60-ties, yes.. going away, mass of people, like from our street, from there a lot of them left… where I lived in Rakovčeva street…I know two..three who left. Do not know their names anymore, but those were people a generation of my brother, 10 years older than me, so they went to Canada, America, in… left everything here, parents and…mostly leaving there family here. Those who left..allegedly have succeeded."

-"...in 60-ies again tried to escape? - O yes, gathered a couple of us.. we should be four, at the end three of us.. and we tried, yes.. went on a train in the evening, fast train Pula - (?), board in without tickets, no money, no nothing and… go until we have beek kicked out of train, normally…. That was an fast train, it did not has any stops until.. think only in Kanfanar it has a stop… first time…and after in Pazin. Now I´m not sure, but think yes, yes. Anyway, in Pazin they kicked us from train, as we didn´t have tickets or.. anything, no documents with us, normally, went out and continue … so, we eat wild apples, it was great, were so hungry and so … came to Divače. After three days when came to Divača … passed through. Did not know where we are, which direction to take.. planed to go to Kozina and there.. people use to talk this is easiest point to cross the border… and in Divača passed by police and came back again when one man explain where … where Kozina is, which way to go, no…normally, came back and police officer came out.. can´t forget ever, ask me:”Hej boys, where are you going?”(on Slovenian language).We did not know anything.. and me.. I said..”Go ahead.” “ And where to?” And that was it. Took us for a hand and lead us straight to police headquarters. Normaly, there were (inspection?) from Pula came to… because three children disappeared … escape and so on… took us to the station and in Kozina in prison, like this… to spend night, wright. The next day came to pick us up and … back to train again to Divača with an escort to Pula… and that was it. That was an adventure, but.. think we, adventure.. and we thought “to go somewhere”, where is better, for us. Two of my colleagues were a year older than me, I was the youngest, and the third who … fourth who should go with us, could not come because.. his father locked him up in the house and… that´s it. - Question. How did you know Kozina is a place, point for escape, who told you that? - This was hear – say stories at that time.. stories from neighborhood, those who run away, escape only from that point or close to Trieste…. by Škofija or Kozina, the easiest was there because of Lipica, a border area with less guards from both sides… - so in porterhouses it was normally to talk about it? - O no, we were children, not in porterhouses, we gathered information from elderly people who were… tried to escape or.. saying, discussing …. Where is the easiest point to cross over.. as it is on the border area, Lipica and less guarded… easy passage… - Easy to cross over? - Yes."